The never ending Religion thread!!!

[Gracania]

YAY Religion!

Well lets boil down all the discussion on religion that is bound to occur to this place. So if you're Atheist, Agnostic or Theist shout out your opinions. On second thoughts I'm probably going to regret this thread.

I'm a Thiest, Church of England (protestant). With religion I become quite conservative (i.e. Don't like Abortion or Euthanasia or sex outside of marriage) but what I believe is for myself (e.g. I would never have an abortion but as a man who am I to tell a woman what to do with her body?). Politically I rarely let my religion intrude on my political beliefs except in cases of morality and by that I mean Honesty, equality for all (if you don't think the bible says that try Galatians 3) Honour and pacifism.

[New Roosevelt]

I'm an italian-hawaii catholic. I know, weird, right?


I have always looked at religion and politics separately. I, myself, don't believe in abortion, to a degree, but how can I deny anyone the right to do what they want with their own bodies? It seems ridiculous to me how right-wing southern conservatives want to reverse Roe v. Wade. Hello? Its over! You lost!

There is this thing called separation of church and state, and I think that there is a fine line between something that's wrong, and something people THINK is wrong. What's wrong is no separation of church and state, what one might think is wrong is the abolishment of abortion. I don't mean to come off as callus as I think I just did, but oh well. My opinion on that particular matter is that the abolishment of abortion would be a violation of the separation of church and state.

[Nasha's Domain]

I personally am a Athiest. I prefer not to get mixed up in religion for two reasons. 1, I find that even if it is not political conflict and has no effect on politics that it still causes conflict. And 2, I just like to look at all angles of things rather than focus on one view. I prefer to consider all beliefs and look into them to an extent rather than just choose one and go with that forever. I am not saying that all people are like that but most of the religious people i have met are. Now, I am also not saying that people should not practice religion but i am saying that it should not be so important that you actually kill or fight with other people over it. Debates and such things are fine, they promote understanding and perhaps allow people to come to a conclusion otherwise unreachable. But personally i find religion to be something that causes too much conflict (Not that politics doesnt).

[Qlorplox]

I'm an Agnostic. Religion is a cause for great comfort for many people (most people), believing in the afterlife, guiding people with morals. But for others it can cause hatred and war. Thus I prefer not to get mixed up in religion. I respect people's beliefs, but I think they should not preach them loudly (loudspeakers on Mosques, are one of the things which annoy me). I have had some form of Religious education, going to a Jewish school for a couple of years. I support people's rights to choose, and have no strong opinions on Gay Marriage or Abortions, but I am against Euthanasia.

[Gracania]

To say religion and politics don't mix is a misunderstanding of the history of our culture. Every modern society is rooted in religious beliefs. In traditionally Christian countries the laws are founded in the ten commandments.

On another note, although you say America has separated church and state it clearly doesn't. Take a look at the dollar for a start.

[New Roosevelt]

Laughs. I understand what you mean, but we technically did, "separate church and state."

Regardless of the currency, we said we did it so there !!!



But I think that the abolishment of abortion would be going against the separation of church and state. While some may say its inhumane, I think we all know that the real reason they say that is because they can't say that, "The bible said its bad." Do you think all the rednecks in south USA would say abortion is good, if the bible said so?

[Nasha's Domain]

You make a good point. People are willing to follow their religion no matter what it says to do. (Some people anyway, not all people obviously) I find that a lot of people are overdoing things.

[Collective Believers]

This is my favorite question to pose to people...there are only two countries in the world who have "the almighty" (for whatever religion you believe) on their currency, can you name those two nations?

[New Roosevelt]

The Vatican City and I don't know.


Am I right with the first one?

[Gracania]

America

[Collective Believers]

Well America is correct, we have the wonderful "In God we Trust"

but the second country is always very surprising to people....


drumroll please!



Iran

[Citrustan]

Well, I sure am glad we're in illustrious company then.

I'm an atheist, and a fairly activist one - I've worked for secular lobbyists and I'm the president of my school's atheist group. Surprisingly, though, I'm not all that into debating religion with people these days. I usually run into what my philosophy professor calls the "dull thud of conflicting intuitions," where no progress can be made.

[Qlorplox]

Atheists preaching their viewpoints are as annoying to me as religious people doing so.

Iran isn't really all that surprising, it is an "Islamic Republic".

[Gracania]

I love talking with athiests, while nothing can be settled philosophically religion's place in the world is interesting. However I hate it when some athiests ignore what you say because you believe.

Out of interest what do people think of the religion/science debate?

[Collective Believers]

I will probably get lambasted for this, but I think the two can easily be intertwined.

I personally am a Roman Catholic and was taught creationism from an early on. However, after going to public high school, I realized that evolution was much more and is more plausible than creationism. To me though, it was always silly to view the bible has a literal text or interpretation of events. Jesus' greatest tool was the parable, and to me, creationism is a parable to evolution.

What if the earth was not literally created in seven days as the bible suggests, but rather 7 eons. Or better yet, it doesn't have to be fixated on the number 7 but could just be 7 clear cut distinctions in evolution. "Let there be light!" is that not a parable for the big bang?

I am endlessly fascinated by the the universe. Why is there nothing instead of something? How can we be expanding into nothing? And while we can trace the Big Bang all the way back to the four super elements, how did they get there? Why did they explode? What prompted it?

I am sure somebody will try and answer all of these questions for me, but to me, I do not see why religion/science have to be mutually exclusive, why can't they work together?

[New Roosevelt]

Wai-wai-wait!!!

You're telling me that the Vatican doesn't have something about god on currency?

[Collective Believers]

you can double check me on that, but I am almost 100% sure they dont

[Gracania]

The Vatican uses the Euro

[Citrustan]

Atheists preaching their viewpoints are as annoying to me as religious people doing so.

Well, it's a good thing we don't have door-to-door evangelists then...?

I have to admit, I think vocal atheists get a lot of "you're just as bad as they are!" rhetoric when that's not actually the case. Sure, some atheists are less than tactful about religion (I'm looking at you, PZ Myers) but I think this meanness (which I don't advocate, btw) is blown up into something bigger than it actually is. Atheists are sometimes accused of being just as pushy as Christians, but I've never had an atheist come to my home and tell me (or my family) to read the God Delusion and become an atheist. Even more flabbergasting is the use of the term "militant". A militant Muslim or Christian is someone who advocates violence in the name of their religion; but "militant atheist" is inexplicably used to refer to anyone who thinks religion is stupid - even if they are absolutely opposed to violence. I don't understand this double standard.

The only place where atheists do have an edge is online. For some reason, online atheists are numerous and often really obnoxious. I'm really not sure why.

[Nasha's Domain]

I dont know why either. I am an Athiest but i normally keep it to myself because i dont really mind people having religion unless it gets violent. I dont go around preaching all the time about how god is a load of crap and all that. I personally may not believe in religion but that doesnt mean other people shouldn't or are not allowed to.

[Qlorplox]

Atheists preaching their viewpoints are as annoying to me as religious people doing so.

Well, it's a good thing we don't have door-to-door evangelists then...?

I have to admit, I think vocal atheists get a lot of "you're just as bad as they are!" rhetoric when that's not actually the case. Sure, some atheists are less than tactful about religion (I'm looking at you, PZ Myers) but I think this meanness (which I don't advocate, btw) is blown up into something bigger than it actually is. Atheists are sometimes accused of being just as pushy as Christians, but I've never had an atheist come to my home and tell me (or my family) to read the God Delusion and become an atheist. Even more flabbergasting is the use of the term "militant". A militant Muslim or Christian is someone who advocates violence in the name of their religion; but "militant atheist" is inexplicably used to refer to anyone who thinks religion is stupid - even if they are absolutely opposed to violence. I don't understand this double standard.

The only place where atheists do have an edge is online. For some reason, online atheists are numerous and often really obnoxious. I'm really not sure why.

I suppose it depends on where you live. In Australia, serious Atheists seem to outnumber serious Christians, and I've never experienced door-knocking Christians.

I was speaking from personal experience. Two of my RL friends will not accept any opposition to Atheism, and decree that it's fact.

The usage of Militant Atheists is really quite weird, I agree. I don't think I've ever heard of much terrorism in the name of Atheism or Science.

[the UNSC]

I agree on that one.

I hate it when people try to tell me that some how i am to worship a god who hands everything to me like I'm an infant. Hloo folks, I'm a Roman Catholic (who's not an idiot! obviously don't mean you collective lol) I feel like some credit is due based on the fact (assuming you believe) that it all started with god. but please... its an insult to my (and their own) intelligence when you tell me that some how Jesus magic's his way into the uterus and creates.

As for abortion its not a religious question in the first place... its moral. it just so happens that religion (mainly Christians) forms an opinion and it's followers take it and run, often in the complete wrong direction. I am anti abortion. though i would make an exception in the case of rape or incest. these however should be the exception not the rule. rape is NOT the standard for abortion. if you try to tell me that every woman walking into a clinic of such a nature is a rape incest or otherwise the victim of gruesome conception, your thicker than the wall next to you. Lets remember that this fetus will grow to be just like you. by using the technical name you can distance yourself from it and change it from a growing infant to in fact an item. a "thing" which is not (or will not become) a human like you or I. sure you can slap your hands together and kills cells like you do when you have an abortion. but those cells will not be a person at some point. the fact that these cells are unique and special enough to equal you when fully developed. they are people. though they may not talk and such they aren't so disposable. while i empathize with women who are pregnant and would rather not be and the fact that it is her body, if she didn't want a child did it not occur to her to use protection? or just wait till she could GET protection? it should have. when she went ahead without such a protection she should be willing to accept that HER BODY WILL MORE THAN LIKELY FUNCTION AS DESIGNED... and she will involve another person. once there is another person involved she cant just be done. she has made another living thing a Person to be dependent on her. it is morally (not religiously) her obligation to finish what she started and at least give the baby up fpr adoption. maybe some nice gay/lesbian couple would benefit? lol i'm sorry i couldn't resist, but its true! adding perspective is important. its not that i want to stop her control over her own body, its that she is not the only person involved.

[Wilhelm Tuscini]

I'm a me

[Citrustan]

I suppose it depends on where you live. In Australia, serious Atheists seem to outnumber serious Christians, and I've never experienced door-knocking Christians.

I was speaking from personal experience. Two of my RL friends will not accept any opposition to Atheism, and decree that it's fact.

Hm. I have an Aussie philosophy professor (who is one of those "serious atheists" but not for the reasons that the more scientifically-minded atheists give) and he tells me that in Australia, nobody listens to the crazy religious nuts, so you export them here, where people do listen. There's an Australian dude by the name of Ken Ham who now lives in the US and has opened a creationist museum in Kentucky. Fun fact: I just looked up the creation museum on Wiki and it's been vandalized. The first sentence reads thusly: "The Creation Museum is a museum dedicated to spreading bullshit lies to stupid people who refuse to believe in things that actually make sense." I repeat what I said about internet atheists being loud and obnoxious, but Ken Ham kind of deserves it. He's a complete buffoon.

Anyway, I didn't know Australia was completely devoid of the door-knocking, street-preaching evangelist types. I sort of assumed you guys would have them too; I'm not sure why I thought that. If your Christians are saner and your atheists are louder, then yeah, I guess you have every reason to say what you did.

UNSC- your diatribe comes off as highly inconsistent. If the fetus is another person that has a right to life, then why do you make exceptions for rape and incest? Also, rape is much more common than you'd think; one in four American women has been raped in her lifetime, and I daresay it's a lot less likely to be protected than consensual sex, so pregnancy is more likely. It's not some HIGHLY EXCEPTIONAL case that hardly ever happens.

Finally, protection doesn't always work. Condoms are not 100% effective even when used properly, and they aren't always used properly. And a lot of women aren't fully informed about sex education because of reactionary sex education policies in the US.

I actually do have more, but I'd like you to address these points first.

[the UNSC]

you make good points, but the reason i allow for rape and incest cases is because the circumstance is so extreme. recall that i don't describe myself as pro life, but rather anti abortion. i believe that at times death is a necessary price for commodity's worth it. however it is also my belief that you should spend those lives very wisely. wasting good lives is unfair. especially in the case of abortion when the kid didn't choose to give it up. i would call a fetus a human being, because there is no other cell type anywhere that has the ability to equal you. i feel like while its still developing its worse to to kill it than later on when he/she has developed into an adult and knew it was coming or gave up their life willingly.

While in a technical sense its not yet human it doesn't take an expert to realize that it will be, and that it looks like a baby. it feels, listens, and even see's. they can have basic thoughts. i s'pose i think its splitting hairs to just call them less than human and conveniently be lacking that annoying pregnancy. i want to make it known that i'm not one of those crazy fanatical peopled who run around yelling and stopping women from going into abortion clinics, and i certainly don't think less of you as a person for having variable views, it is my opinion that abortion is morally lacking and certainly over used. if its one in four women, than i feel like 1 in four women are eligible for an abortion.

You will surely recall roe V wade? i know every pro lifer and pro choicer brings this up and makes some BS argument till we're all bored. Jane roe, or by her real name Norma Mccorvey, is now pro life. she deeply resents her choice to have an abortion and takes an active role in the white rose catholic child crisis pregnancy center. i know because (while i was to young to remember) my mother used to know her and be part of that same Texas organization. i know that's just some little blurb to you, and i honestly don't mean it to be some horse shit inspiring story to "change your heart" but the psychology of aborting a pregnancy goes deep. and often many women have to have therapy, because whether you want to go by the technical definition or not, we all see a fetus and associate it with an infant. though its s gray spot for sure, i end up on the other side of the argument because its too close. I'd be pissed if my mum had had an abortion lol.

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